Crisis Leadership and Solving the Right Problem Featuring Tony Ferraro

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:00

You are in the role you are to make these decisions that this is not extraordinary. These tough decisions are the ordinary things that a leader does. So put yourself in that frame of mind. I should be doing this. This isn't a crisis. This is what I'm supposed to do as the leader.

Kate Volman [: 00:00:20

This is Lead With Culture. I'm Kate Volman, and on this episode, we are talking about crisis leadership and solving the real problems. I am joined by our director of coaching, Tony Ferraro. Tony, I'm excited about this episode, Kate.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:36

I am excited to talk about it also. It's timely and we hear about it all the time, and so be a good one to talk about.

Kate Volman [: 00:00:43

Yeah, well, it was kind of inspired by something that you pointed out from the CrossFit Games. So tell us a little bit about what, what inspired you to want to talk about crisis leadership?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:54

Yeah, well, it's interesting. I probably, more than most, pay attention to the periphery of things when they go on how people handle situations and try to apply it to all the stuff we do, the coaching and so. So I'm a big CrossFit fan, and recently the CrossFit Games happens once a year. The biggest CrossFit event was held in Fort Worth, Texas. And tragically, on the first day of competition, there was a run and a swim, and one of the competitors, as I said, tragically lost their life, drowned in the first event. You know, I don't want to talk about the whole event and their, I kind of figure out what happened and all those things, but, you know, just this elite athlete, it was a complete surprise. And again, that part of it they're trying to work out. But I was really struck with, after I found out what had happened, I was really interested on how things were going to get handled from a leadership standpoint because that's crisis management right there, and that's.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:01:46

And leadership has to step up. So I was very interested to see how the CrossFit leadership would handle that in the moment because, you know, as you and I both know, we have lots of conversations with our clients, and oftentimes they're calling because something's up and they want to talk it through. So it's just good to get that real world experience. So I thought boys would be a really good topic to discuss what I saw and just some reflections about that.

Kate Volman [: 00:02:10

It really is interesting, especially with something like that, because I think with certain challenges that we're dealing with as leaders, we have a lot more time to consider when it's something where it's very public and people like you, you're big into CrossFit, as anyone that does CrossFit knows, they're probably big into cross. And so when something like that happens, you're totally looking at the leadership to say, oh, my gosh, what are they going to do? How are they going to respond? And also, how quickly are they going to respond? Because it's obviously a big tragedy that needs to be addressed and kind of taking that next step on what to do. Everyone's looking at them. So what did you experience? What kind of surprised you about the decision that was made?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:02:55

Yeah. So again, separate from what happened, what? Dave Castro is the head of the CrossFit games. He's a former Navy Seal. And I was really interested to see his response. And of course, they got out right in front and discussed what happened, took ownership of the issue, not necessarily blame, but definitely ownership of the issue, which is the first thing, you know, a leader has to do. And as you said, there's like nothing worse that could have happened to this event. And sometimes as leaders, and I'll hear this, that only the really bad stuff gets to me, only the tough decisions end up on my desk. And I always say, look, if the decision were easier, somebody below you would have made it already.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:03:37

And quite frankly, if you're making the easy decisions, you don't have people empowered below you. So just that understanding as a leader, so you don't get caught off guard that the tough decisions come to you, you're going to have to deal with them. There's going to be a landmine. There's going to be something blow up, and you're going to have to deal with it. And if you're surprised by that as a leader, then you're going to have a kind of a tough road to hoe from there. So that's the first thing, you own it and then understand that this is why you're in leadership. Many things you do as a leader, this is what you're made for as a leader. That means you can't be caught off guard, which means you have to practice ahead of time those habits, the virtues, the techniques, all those things that are necessary to handle a crisis.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:04:21

So that's the first thing you start to plan ahead on these things. And I don't, I'm not gonna be clear. I'm not talking about a crisis plan here, although those are good. I'm talking about just at a gut level leadership and how you respond. So you better be thinking about those things. There's something's going to happen and you better be thinking about how you're going to react in the moment. The second thing is you mentioned in there that's interesting is the timeliness of it. So, yes, as a leader, you have to get out in front of things.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:04:49

However, one of the things that I see go on, I think too often now is when something happens, there's a rush to do something, and that's a little bit different than just getting out in front of it. So the rush to do it, unfortunately, the trend today from all the PR people is to just disavow yourself from somebody does something in your company or something happens, you just, you toss them away and you move on from it. But we, I was just reading that when you think about your brain, your brain is wired to make certainty out of uncertainty. The brain is not meant to function in an uncertain state. That's a safety mechanism in our brain. So that can be helpful, but it can also be really harmful, because what can happen is we can make a decision. The brain will make a decision to make things certain that are uncertainty. Well, if you've ever been working on a project or a paper in college and you know it's the last minute and you're behind, you just finish it up, even though you know you're going to get a bad grade.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:05:51

But the brain would rather know you have a bad grade than worry about the uncertainty of how you're going to finish it and get a good job. So our brain is going to do what the brain does and get us from uncertainty to certainty. And that's not always the best case scenario. So when you understand that we're, like.

Kate Volman [: 00:06:09

Programmed for comfort, like we want to feel comfortable, and being certain is that state of comfort, instead of being comfortable, being uncomfortable, which is especially a skill that leaders have to have because of that very fact, because every single day it's almost, we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what's going to come across our desk. And so to be able to be prepared for those moments, that is what leadership is all about. That's why you're in this role. You, you're taking on that role of managing risk and what that looks like. And so being more comfortable in uncertainty than most people, because certainty is a need for many of us. Right. We all want to be certain that we're making the right decision, we're making the right move, we're in the right place, all of that.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:06:53

Right. So making some space, and you have to actually intentionally do this and make space between what happened, what you're going to do, and that urge to get to that certain place, making sure you have space in there to really evaluate what you need to do and go against the natural urge that maybe your brain is bringing you towards is really important and how often something will happen. And really well intentioned people, you hear it all the time, well, we just have to do something. I don't know what to do, but we just have to do something. The reality is you don't, you really don't have to do something. You know, somebody's dealing with a tragedy. They don't need a text from you necessarily. They don't need a visit, they don't.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:07:36

Sometimes people need space. So doing something is not always best approach, particularly when you don't have a plan and you're just doing something. Because I've got to do something because that's part of that uncertainty thing. If I act, then I'm doing something. It may be the wrong thing, but I've brought some certainty into the situation. So that's a challenge as a leader building in that space, and that's where the practicing comes in to. Do I, have I practiced this? Whether it's the physical part of it, the psychological part of it, the physiological part of it, have I trained myself to be able to create that space between the problem and the solution? It's actually one of the things that we both coach executives, and it's one of the things that I hear from, you know, I'll get a text, hey, can we talk? And a CEO, a leader, he says, this came up and I wanted to talk it over with you. Basically wanted to talk it over with him or herself, not really with me.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:08:33

They just want somebody to listen and to see how this sounds. And so you let them talk and they figure it out most of the time without any input. You just, somebody just needs to hear it the first time. So those are great calls because they save a lot of backtracking. The person has a chance to hear what they have to say for their thoughts to mix with oxygen and see what the result is when it comes out. And so that's really one of the benefits of having a coach because I've also had the calls where it's like, hey, this happened, and this is what I did, and I'm not sure it went real well. And then those are helpful to do that postmortem, but it's already passed, and so it would have been so much more effective to have that conversation ahead of time. So make space.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:09:15

Get yourself ready that they are going to happen and understand that that's your role. That's really the first part of crisis leadership. And then, as you mentioned, the second part then is making sure to solve the right problem. And I, this is true whether there's a crisis or not. I think it just gets highlighted in crisis because what we see is, the first question it has to be asked is, do we have a problem? Now, in this case, there was a problem and it needed to be solved. It's obvious. And a lot of times in a crisis it is. But in a non crisis situation, in organizations all the time, they try to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:09:55

There may be a perception of a problem and they don't have facts or data around it. And so you end up with a solution that's hunting around for a problem to solve. And you spend a lot of time and energy doing that. So that's the first thing. And then getting the second most important question. It sounds simple, is so what is the problem? And sometimes we think we know the problem and we actually don't. And I always think of, I think you and I both like that movie Moneyball where Billy Beane sits around the table. He says, okay.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:10:27

So the one guy says, so, all right, we all know the problem. And he says, great, what's the problem? And they get three or four different answers. None of them are right. That line. Well, I think we all know the problem here. If you don't question that as a leader, you're going to end up solving the wrong problem. So really trying to come out with what is the problem? And then you can deal with how big the problem is. So those are kind of three things.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:10:48

You, you know, do we have a problem? What is it and how big is it will help you. Now, in this case, obviously, this is an extreme case. Yes, we have a problem that was determine pretty quickly what is the problem that I'll get to in a minute. And then how big is the problem? This was a big problem. So here's the part that really stuck with me. So Dave Castro was talking about, he had to, they made an internal decision that because the big decision was, are we going to continue to have the games? It's a three day event, huge event. And so he chronicled how, in a video I saw later how he brought the athletes together and said, we think we're going to continue the games. And he said immediately the athlete said, well, we want a voice in this.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:11:27

So he said, okay. And he got all the athletes together and put them in groups to have some conversations about it. And he said all along, as they were doing this, he said what appeared to be the prevailing voice was we don't want to continue. And he said it was a pretty loud voice. Well, it was a loud voice, but it was being made by a small number of people. And so they were having these sessions, sitting, talking about it, and they decided to take a break. And at that point, he said several athletes came up to him and said, look, we just want you to know, we do want to continue with the games, but we're real hesitant to speak up because of how loudly and boldly a few people who were well known in the circle were speaking up about canceling it. At that point he said, great.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:12:15

What we're going to do when we get back is we're going to take an anonymous polling of everybody and see what the actual feelings are about continuing. And when they did that, they found out that 80% of the athletes wanted to continue. And his comment was, if you had read the room prior to that poll, you would have swore that it was 80 20 the other way, that just about everybody wanted to cancel the games. So I know that's happened in my situations before, and you can probably speak to it too, Kate, where there's a lack voice or there's some extenuating circumstance that takes over and it paints the picture that the problem is one thing or the solution is one thing, when it really isn't. And I think it's a great study in group dynamics too, of the loudest voice carrying the day. As a leader in a crisis management situation, the loudest voice can't be the leading voice. I mean, it may be right, that may be the consensus. But if you just go by the loudest voice, that could lead you the wrong way.

Kate Volman [: 00:13:19

Oh, that's so interesting. It reminds me of so many different ideas. One is when Matthew always says, never accept the premise of a question. It reminds me of that. And then also with leadership, leaders are tasked with helping their team members grow. And when we are with our teams and sitting around the table or on our zooms or whatever we're doing, we're responsible for understanding the personalities of our people. And there's the extroverts that they're the loudest, they're the ones that you can't get them to shut up in meetings. And then there's a lot of introverts who maybe don't feel as confident because of exactly what you just said.

Kate Volman [: 00:13:57

And so that's our opportunity to then look to those people and ask them, what do you think? What are your thoughts? Like, everyone, I like when leaders will say, everyone's going to share today, everyone's going to share their opinion on this, and that forces everybody to share that opinion. And it's so interesting because some of those folks are the ones that bring up something that came out of left field that we never would have thought about. So I really think that is so important. And could you imagine if that decision was made without, I mean, that would have cost them the whole rest of the games, which is huge. And then that would be like another crisis, because then what would have happened is potentially all the athletes would have been talking about. I can't believe he did that. This was the wrong move. And he would have been like, wait a minute, this was the wrong move.

Kate Volman [: 00:14:49

I was sitting there and you guys, I did what you wanted me to do.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:14:53

Yeah. And we've also been in meetings, too, where, like, the first voice sets the tone or says, I think we ought to do this, and they set a parameter, and then everybody else tries to solve the problem within that parameter that the first person outlay, when that may not be the best solution. So that's where that whole premise of the question comes in, is, you know, as a leader, say, okay, that's one way to go. Give me another way. It's totally separate from that, because otherwise the direction just goes right through the funnel of the loudest voice. You come up with a solution for the wrong problem that was outlined by somebody in there.

Kate Volman [: 00:15:30

So this reminds me, there's a question that leaders can ask that I absolutely love this, which when someone starts to say, what should I do? Like, what should we do? What should we do? Then you get stuck in what you were just talking about. Instead of opening up that to what could we do? Just shifting, what should I do? To what could we do? You start opening up those doors of, oh, wait a second, we could. And this is your opportunity to throw out something so outlandish, crazy, ridiculous, but it'll just start to open up people's minds a little bit more and also feel like they have the opportunity to do that, which is something that we have to do as leaders, is to create that safe environment in which people feel like they actually can voice their opinions.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:16:15

Yep, absolutely. So, again, nothing totally new in here, but it was just seeing that in action was so I thought they did the right thing there. Now we'll see how things play out after this. And there's a lot of work to be done, but just in that moment. So I would just encourage folks that make space between, you know, your brain trying to make things certain and the uncertainty that's there. If you have the opportunity to that space, talking to your coach, talking to that trusted confidant, making sure that you do have a problem, that you're attempting to solve the right problem, that people have a voice, which is, and it's important to say, which doesn't mean that you lead. Bye. Democratic process.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:16:53

And sometimes as a leader, you're going to have to do the exact opposite of what your team wants you to do or what they say that you should do. Because again, that's why you're in role of the leader. If it's all just okay, whatever the group decides, that's what we're going to do, then you're kind of useless as a leader. You know, if you know something is not the solution, sometimes you have to look, we're all stuck on teams. We're all stuck in our not silo, but at least our frame of reference. And so that's limited. And the leader has to see beyond everybody's frame of reference on what's good for the mission because mission's king and what's going to move the mission of the organization, even if it's not popular, even if it's not the consensus. But you just have to slow things down.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:17:36

You still have to act. We tend to make decisions far quicker than we often need to. And in a crisis, it's not always the best thing.

Kate Volman [: 00:17:44

There's something to be said about the phrase sleep on it.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:17:49

Absolutely.

Kate Volman [: 00:17:50

Like really sleep on it. So. All right, Tony, just as a fun exercise or activity, because I think that is a big challenge for a lot of leaders, creating that space like you talked about. So how can leaders get more comfortable in that space? Like being in that messy middle where things are a little bit. We don't really know which direction we're going to go, we're going to do, and sometimes that's a day and sometimes it might be a week. So how can you sit in that space, that uncomfortable, messy middle, before making that decision or making sure that you're avoiding making that decision too quickly?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:28

Well, I think it goes back to the very beginning we talked about is that you are in the role. You are to make these decisions, that this is not extraordinary, these tough decisions are the ordinary things that a leader does. So put yourself in that frame of mind. I should be doing this. This isn't a crisis. This is what I am. I'm supposed to do as the leader. That's the first thing.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:49

Get normal. This is what you should be doing. And that means you have to think about these issues. You have to think about, you have to get in the headspace that my job is to make the really, really tough decisions in this organization. And so when your time comes, you'll be ready for it. You know, you think of somebody like Churchill. That was his moment. He knew what that it was tough, but he was new.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:19:08

He was called to be there for his company, and so, or his country, rather. So that's really the first thing. Slowing down is the second thing. And I think just getting that in your head that, okay, my brain is trying to get me be certain about this, but I need to live in this uncertainty a little bit. And look, we can live in uncertainty by doing tough things in our lives, too, outside of our job, whether that's mentally taking on some tough things, physically taking on some tough things. We build this resilience to being in an uncomfortable state. And so if we do that, we're building up the ability to do this rather than all this coming at us blindsided. So I just think knowing that you're where you're supposed to be as the leader, understand what's going on in your head and in the heads of everybody else, and just be deliberate about your thoughts and then make the best decision and get on with it.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:20:01

So, nothing complicated with it, but we skip some steps. What is the problem? And just keep asking yourself, am I solving the right, is this really the problem? Could there be something else I'm missing? And that's the way to go, I think.

Kate Volman [: 00:20:13

All right, good. Good. Well, hopefully, we are preparing leaders for any type of crisis management, and hopefully nothing that to the extent that they experienced over there at the CrossFit Games, that's obviously devastating. But it's always interesting to see what happens in those situations and what we can learn from them, what everybody can learn from them. So, Tony, thank you so much for joining. Always really incredible insights. And if you are listening and you're like, you know, I could definitely, definitely use a coach to talk through some of these challenges. Or even when, you know, when you need a little help getting comfortable, being uncomfortable or having that third party person that you can talk to and call and even ask, is this a crazy idea or crazy? That third party person is the only one that can actually see things from a very different perspective and maybe ask you a question that would completely shift your way of thinking and help you come up with that solution, whatever it.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:21:12

Is, the total value of a coach just being removed from the situation and not having a dog in the fight.

Kate Volman [: 00:21:17

Absolutely. Like, your coach would be like, doesn't matter to me which way you go. I hope you know good luck. That's what I'm here to help you. So if you're interested in potentially getting coached, we would love to have that conversation with you. You can go to floydcoaching.com. thank you all so much for listening to this episode. We hope that you got some something out of it.

Kate Volman [: 00:21:38

We look forward to seeing you at the next episode. And until next time, Lead With Culture.