Are You Solving the Wrong Problem?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:00

When we solve for the wrong problem, it's pretty predictable. A, the problem doesn't get solved, and B, we typically create some other problems that actually gets us further away from the solution.

Kate Volman [: 00:00:13

I am so excited about this episode because I am joined by our director of coaching, Tony Ferraro. Tony, welcome.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:24

Kate. It's great to be here. As always, I love doing these. I really psyched about the topic today because it's so relevant. So looking forward to it.

Kate Volman [: 00:00:32

It's going to be a fun one, as they always are when we get together and have these fun, meaningful conversations that help our listeners become better leaders as they work towards their culture and helping their people become the best version of themselves. So we were talking yesterday about, okay, what should we do this episode about? And there's so many great topics and so many conversations that we're having with really wonderful leaders about what's going on in their world. And so we decided, hey, let's talk about. Are you solving the right problems? It's a great topic.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:01:03

It is a great topic. It's a great topic because most of the time the answer is no if we're honest. Yeah, exactly. And even when you know about the concept, you still make the mistake. So I was thinking as we were talking, we decided that's the topic. And so this old commercial came to mind. It was an ESPN commercial. They used to do these great commercials with athletes.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:01:22

And one of them was with Rickie Fowler, who a golfer. And Rickie Fowler used to wear these, like, neon bright outfits. It became kind of a running joke about whether he was colorblind or not. And so they did a conversation where he walk, or a commercial, rather. He walks into this break room. He says, hey, Rickie, how you doing? He says, oh, I'm dragging today. I sure need some coffee to get me going. So he walks up and he picks up the coffee handle.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:01:45

The guy says, well, that's. That's decaf. And he says, no, it's not. He says, yeah, it's got the orange handle. Now when he takes it, he pours it in the cup and he sets it down. He picks up this carafe of orange juice. And the guy's like, Rickie. And he just puts his hand up and he pours the orange juice in the coffee.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:02:01

And he drinks the coffee, spits it out in the sink, and then he starts pouring the orange juice out. He says, man, that milk's gone bad. And so he's colorblind. That's the issue, not the milk going bad. So that's what happens quite a bit. When, whether in our personal life, but particularly today, we're talking about on a team, in a company team or your work team or what have you, is we just, we end up solving for the wrong problem. The reality to that is when we solve for the wrong problem, it's pretty predictable. A, the problem doesn't get solved, and B, we typically create some other problems that actually gets us further away from the solution.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:02:42

And I was thinking about that. I was doing a little research on leaders in crisis management and was watching a documentary on Three Mile Island. I'm old enough to remember Three Mile Island and a nuclear accident in the United States. And the idea of this nuclear reaction, just one thing happens which creates a bigger reaction, which creates a bit, and it just keeps going. That's what happens when you start solving for the wrong problem. And, and interesting enough just to get off this topic, but in that documentary, you know, they mentioned that there were six mistakes or six things that happened that caused that accident, and four and a half of them, as they described it, were human error. So we spent 30 years talking about how bad nuclear power was and shutting down all these nuclear plants. It just turned out that these four guys at a council made some really bad decisions, and that's what led to the problem.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:03:28

So that's what happens when we start solving for the wrong problem.

Kate Volman [: 00:03:31

Something that comes to mind so often is with businesses, a lot of times when businesses slow or revenue is down, what do most people immediately go to? We need more leads. It's always a lead problem, right? So now you're thinking, oh, it's got to be a lead problem. And so we just have to generate more and more leads. So they're focused on that. That could be the problem. Or it could also be, if we reframe the problem, it could be, oh, wait a second, we actually get a decent amount of leads. We're not closing any of our leads. And so is it a sales process problem? Is it a middle of the funnel? Maybe we just need to feed them more information so by the time they get through the sales process.

Kate Volman [: 00:04:14

It's fascinating to me is, yes, we have to figure out the right problem. So now we have like, okay, we have to figure out the right problem and then find the right solution. Because then you think about, do you have the right problem, but you're solving for it the wrong way? Do you have the right problem and you're solving it the right way? That's where we want to get to, right? That's the ultimate goal. But we might have the Wrong problem, but solving it the right way. Right. Can you imagine you have the wrong problem but you're solving it, you're figuring it out. So if your problem is generating leads, maybe you've been able to figure out how to create more leads, but nothing's changed because you're not solving for the right problem. And then of course the wrong problem the wrong way, which we don't want to be there, we don't want to.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:04:59

Be there at quadrant is not where you want to land. Yeah.

Kate Volman [: 00:05:01

So I think it's like interesting to think about things in, in that regard and where you are and whatever problems you're dealing with, like is it truly the right problem? So I know you work with a lot of leaders and this comes up often when thinking through how are they growing, what are they doing, especially when it comes to people because people are gonna people. And so with some of the people challenges that they're having, what are some questions that you ask leaders when it comes to finding the right problem?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:05:27

If we relate to say for example, to you know, to our own lives, everybody can do that. And I think like one of my children was talking about they wanted to start getting up earlier. So their solution, they thought the problem was they weren't getting to bed early enough to get up earlier. And so the solution they chose was to try to get to bed earlier. Well, what happened was predictable is like if you're not used to going to bed early, you lay in bed, you don't get to sleep, you end up staying up just as late. Although it's non productive time and you're stressed and you're still not getting up earlier. So you know, we looked at the suggestion and saying, and I was telling people, if you want to get up earlier, the key to that is least initially is to get up earlier. If you get up earlier for two or three days in a row, and even if you don't adjust when you go to sleep, you will naturally adjust when you go to sleep because you, you're tired.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:06:15

I mean, you're not tired until you get up early. So they were solving for the night before when the problem was I need to get up early and then go from there. So we can relate that to our personal lives. And then when we start thinking about are we solving the right problem? I think what you said is important to some of these fundamental things to understand there aren't a ton of new solutions. So most of the time the solution is there. It's can you match it up with the correct problem? So I. I think it's important to understand that then you can start asking those questions. Was it Einstein that said, if you gave me a problem, I'd spend the first 55 minutes coming up with the right questions and then come up with a solution so I'm not solving for the wrong problem? A couple of them, I think, are really interesting.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:06:58

One of those it's, if the problem you're trying to solve wasn't the problem, what else might it be? Let's just stop for a minute. Because you say you have a leads problem, Kate. If, for example, for whatever reason, we found out that the number of leads really weren't the problem, what would the problem be? And all of a sudden you've put that thing aside and you've at least come up with an alternate solution. It gets you out of functional fixedness, I think, is a psychological term for it. You get nailed into one way of thinking. So that's not a bad question. Like. Like, well, if that's not the problem, what could it be? And it just gets people thinking.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:07:32

It gets us out of first option bias. If this is amazing to me, in meetings, the first option that comes out becomes, like the default. And then all the solutions are variations of that. So you go down that road and everybody's improving on or doing something to that first solution, when that may not be the solution, that may be solving for the wrong problem. But I've seen that come up so often that the first solution, or the first identification of the problem, if you will, becomes the default. And then everybody's solving off a variation of that. So as a leader, number one, you have to be really careful about have I limited myself? That was the point of that first question. Have I really limited my thinking to just one silo of where that problem could be?

Kate Volman [: 00:08:20

It reminds me of that when we say, don't accept the premise of the question. Yep, it's that same thing. So we were reading you, and I found an article on the Harvard Business Review. And there was a part of it where they talked about bringing in what they called boundary spanners. And it was basically someone in the organization that was close enough to the organization and the department, but not so close that they were, like, so attached to it. So they had, like, a different perspective. So this one group brought in the executive assistant of one of the leaders, one of the managers. And so she could see both sides.

Kate Volman [: 00:08:57

She knew exactly what was happening on the employee side. And then she also knew what was going on with the executive team and the leadership team. So she had both perspectives. And so what her take on the problem was, was very different than the group that was in that room. And so that was huge. So to think about, oh, who in your organization could you bring in that would be able to see things from a very different perspective and then help everybody else see it and come up with that solution. So I thought that was cool. And that's another reason why people bring in a coach or a third party person.

Kate Volman [: 00:09:27

Because you know how easy it is to fix someone else's problem or to identify someone else's problem. What's that phrase? You can't read the ingredients from inside the jar. So to have somebody else that can come in and, and see really what's going on.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:09:46

Oftentimes when we go into coaching situations, it's not about solving their problem. A coach is not going to solve your problem. Most often it's they're going to help you identify the problem. Because said it a hundred times, most people have the answers, they just haven't been asked the right questions. And those questions don't have to be complicated. Like the one go to question that just stops people dead in their tracks. Okay, well, what do you want? Right? So we're dealing with this. What do you want? And that just opens up some thinking to start with.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:10:15

That's a simple question. Just ask that and you'd be amazed at what those answers would be. A good coach listens. And as we train our coaches, you know, I always say the, the worst thing that can happen is for you to make a suggestion. And your clients say, yeah, we've tried that. You know, that's the wrong way. What you should have found out is, and this is the next question is like, okay, so what's been tried? You know, if you ask somebody, what if this wasn't the problem, what could the problem be? What is it that you want? You know, what are some things that you've tried? Because as much as what the problem is is a question, there's almost like a hierarchical question is like, is this actually a problem? Because we spend a lot of time solving a problem that's not a problem. So the question around that is not like, is this a problem? Because people will default to yes.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:11:00

But like, okay, so what happens if you don't solve this problem? It could be dire. Sometimes it's not. You know, we've been going along pretty well for six months here. I get maybe this isn't a real problem. And that kind of goes into context too. Oftentimes people say, oh, you know, we Got this. We've been getting angry calls. How many angry calls have we got? Well, there have been two.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:11:22

One was really angry. You know, the amplitude does not determine the multitude in terms of a problem, so. Okay, well, this really isn't a problem to start with, so.

Kate Volman [: 00:11:31

Yeah. Oh, that reminds me so much of relationships, too. Just like, how many people are causing problems that are not actually problems.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:11:39

Yeah. Yeah. What are we doing here? And then going along with the. What do you want? Another simple question is, what else to any of these questions actually, like, what have you tried? What else? What happens if we don't solve this? Well, this happens. Well, what else happens? Mostly because our first answer is typically not the answer, but if someone asks you what else? Two or three times, sometimes it's pretty dramatic. I know when we ask people, what's on your mind? And then we ask them what else? Like the third answer, it could be like an explosion of emotion that they were just. They didn't want to talk about, but they knew it was down there, and they were trying to. All our defense mechanisms and all the things to cover.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:12:16

But somebody asked us until we told them nothing else. I think there's probably something psychological and, like, people want to say it. They want to be asked, but we've got all kind of guards in there that prevent us from doing that.

Kate Volman [: 00:12:28

Yeah. It's also is work. It's work to sit down and ask these questions and to come up with these answers. And I think that so often, a lot of teams are so busy just doing more things like, well, we're still trying to solve for this problem, and you're just doing and doing and doing instead of. Okay, hold on. What's that. That story about the two guys that were chopping down the trees with the ax, and they were working really, really hard, but the one lumberjack was able to chop down, like, twice as many trees as this other guy. And he's like.

Kate Volman [: 00:13:02

And the other guy's like, wait a second. But the guy that chopped down twice the main trees, he leaves and goes on break for an hour every day. And the guy comes back and says, how are you chopping down more trees than me? I don't take any breaks. I keep working and chopping away. And he's like, what are you doing on your breaks? And he's like, I'm sharpening my axe.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:13:18

That's right. Yeah. And, you know, in organizations that are good with their systems, they're, I think, really susceptible to solving the wrong problem, because their default is create a system. Look, we're really good at Company X. We are great at solving problems. So when it comes up, their default is to create a system around it. And again, that system's created for the wrong problem, and the default is to get busy solving it. Not a bad thing to have problem solvers.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:13:44

But I think that's important for leaders, too, to know, like, who should be in the room at what time. Because some people are really good at talking in a bigger picture and others are strategists, and everybody has the role. There is a question that it doesn't work all the time, but every once in a while you can get lucky with this one. It's like, okay, well, if you did know the solution, what would you say to yourself?

Kate Volman [: 00:14:07

People hate that question.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:14:11

But, oh, well, I'd probably say that you should do this. This. Okay. Like just a question that you ask. Okay, okay. You need more leads. If you knew you did know the solution, I'd say, well, why aren't we closing these leads? There you go. It was in there.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:14:23

And so, yeah, didn't always work, but, you know, it can get you out of there. Another one that can be helpful is like, look, in this whole thing, what do you wish was easier? You know, and sometimes it's like, well, we come in here, we talk about this six times a year. I just wish we didn't have to do this, this. Okay. I wish that our sales process was smoother so that we would close more leads and then we wouldn't have to worry about getting more leads. Oh, okay.

Kate Volman [: 00:14:48

I have a question around process. So we talked about process, and obviously organizations at scale, they have good processes. As a company is growing and scaling, it can be so easy for us to. The company's growing and we're adding new components, adding new parts, but we're keeping the same process. And that's where sometimes things can be challenged. What would you recommend for someone who maybe it's time to revisit their process and take a look at that and see if there is some. Some answers or some better questions to ask with the process?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:15:22

Yeah, I think that's legit and rightly so. Again, when you have real good strategists, we have real good executors on a team. They can get very married to a system, and it may or may not be scalable. And what worked at one point doesn't work with either more or with added components. And then so when you start questioning systems, there's some pushback that can happen there. I think the question to ask and so Jeff Bezos quote, is that the question to ask is, has our process become the product? Yeah, we're doing this and we feel like we've accomplished, but we're not getting the outcome that we originally wanted. But like I say, it's tough because people get very proud of the processes they create. And it's a good thing that in your organization, people are committed to the process.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:16:09

But when you have to start looking at, are we still doing the right thing? Then that gets a little. A little difficult. Another sports analysis. When Nick Saban was coaching it at Alabama, they had a lot of success and they did it a particular way. They were, we play defense and we run the ball and we're tough. Or. And he even complained one year about how this trend was coming where everybody was, the game was getting faster and they were taking less time between plays. And he complained about it, what's going on with the game.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:16:39

But he hit a point where saying, rather than complain, we've got to adapt. He hired someone, Lane Kiffin, to come in to modernize or to do more of what they needed to do, and it totally changed where they were and allowed them to continue that run that they were having. Whereas, you know, you can say, this is our identity, this is what we're going to do. It's worked in the past, it'll continue to work. So a real leader knows what those, what those watermark lines are. You know, like we say, you can drill any hole you want in the boat as long as it's above the water line. You have to know where those are. Challenging that assumption.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:17:12

Has our process become the product? Are we more focused on system than we are on outcome? If that's the case, then maybe look at our systems at the same time. You have to tell people you've built a great system, but we need something different right now. So let's take those talents and do something different. And. And sometimes you just have to. You have to blow it up. We're not doing this anymore. So how are we going to solve this now? Yeah, we're not going to do that anymore.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:17:37

Or in the case you were talking about, we are going to invest zero money in attracting new leads. That's it. That's that part. That stake is in the ground now. How are we going to solve this problem?

Kate Volman [: 00:17:48

Yeah, I like that. Just like adding those constraints. Adding those constraints can help us have more creative solutions.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:17:55

Absolutely.

Kate Volman [: 00:17:55

To some of the.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:17:56

Remember Apollo 13, right. They've got. They got to create that filter and the guy brings the engineers in the room and he dumps all that stuff on the table. He says, this is what they have up there. We got a round hose and a square box. How are we going to connect these with this? And then they just got ingenious. So go now, go. Yeah, absolutely.

Kate Volman [: 00:18:16

That is so interesting. I mean, I think some of the most creative, innovative products come when you. We have to give ourselves constraints. What I love about this whole idea of are you solving for the right problems? And we're talking about it obviously from a business perspective, but just in life in general, whatever it is that you're going through, like, that's why I really appreciate that question of what's the real challenge here for you? Right.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:40

Yes.

Kate Volman [: 00:18:40

What's the real challenge here for you? And that really drills down and you can figure out whatever we work with. A lot of people are on their dreams. So whatever dream you're trying to achieve, whatever dream life you want to try to get to, what is a challenge for you really? It's a lot of self reflection and a lot of self awareness to figure out what those answers are.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:19:00

And it's interesting, if someone is battling with something physical or something, they'll always say like, what's the problem? Well, it's just me and my answer. Well, of course it is. I mean, it's your problem. That's a known quantity. It is you. But let's be fair, people are often like too hard on themselves and they'll attribute things to motivation. I just have to be tougher. I just have to do this when the reality is like I'll say, look, you've tried this and this right now you can look at it and say, I failed in all those.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:19:24

Or the way I looked at is you're motivated. Look, you've tried these things. It's not like you're sitting around doing nothing, right? So maybe it's not motivation, maybe it's strategy and execution. So maybe you need a different approach to whatever. But take it easy on yourself. You are motivated. Motivation fades very quickly if you don't have a good strategy behind it and a consistency behind that. So the real problem is not being motivated.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:19:51

The real problem is do you have a system in place that I'm getting up early and I'm going to go work out. Well, if you don't have your clothes laid out or in a bag, you're not working out. You're going to scramble around for 15 minutes. God's too late now. But that's a system issue, not a desire issue. So that's the Case. And I guess the last thing that has helped a little bit in talking to leaders is the question, basically, what have you noticed when you come together and try to solve this problem? And that could be a bunch of different things. One leader said, fred always takes the lead in this thing, and it always, okay, maybe the problem's Fred.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:20:24

If you're telling me every time you go to solve a problem, one person dominates the stuff and you never get the problem solved, maybe that person's the problem. But what do you notice is more of a feeling, more of an intuition. And most of the time, leaders are good at that. We do this every six months. I noticed we always seem to have a problem around performance evaluation time. There's lots of different things that can go on in that this always happens this time of year, whatever that might be. It's an interesting question, so makes it exciting.

Kate Volman [: 00:20:49

That does happen quite often with leaders just recognizing or not, not necessarily wanting to admit that it's a people problem and someone they might need to let go of or try to find a different role for. But, yeah, figuring it out and being intentional about creating a process to. To make sure you're solving for the right problems. I'll leave one more story because I. I heard this from a marketer and I thought it was so fascinating. And he was saying that, I think it was in Europe, and it was people that were waiting for the elevator. So they were having a lot of complaints that the elevator was really slow. And they just kept getting a lot of complaints.

Kate Volman [: 00:21:28

So the problem they thought was the elevator was too slow. Right. So how do you fix a slow elevator? Well, we have to come in and redo the elevators and make them faster and quicker and. But then they brought in another firm, like a design firm or something, and said, hey, let's put mirrors on the walls, like where the elevators are. So they put mirrors there. All of a sudden, the complaints drastically went down because you're now giving someone something to do, which is look at themselves, which people love looking at themselves. Or they started also installing, like, hand sanitizers. Just giving people something to do while they're waiting.

Kate Volman [: 00:22:07

So they didn't notice that the elevator was taking so long. So they didn't have to change anything about the elevator. It was just putting the mirror there, which was so interesting.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:22:17

Yeah, that's fascinating. And I was on a retreat one time, and a Benedictine monk who was actually a psychologist, he made the statement that they did research. And 90% of idle talk among people is negative. So same thing if I'M standing with you in front of this elevator, and I've got nothing else to do. I'm gonna start complaining and griping about.

Kate Volman [: 00:22:38

The elevator that is people. Wow.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:22:41

And then, you know what? Well, and I knew this was gonna be a problem because that person at the front desk was a little short with me, and. I know. And the breakfast was cold down there. I thought it was gonna be a hot breakfast. I mean, it just. You can see how that just takes off.

Kate Volman [: 00:22:51

So that is so interesting. And also, I feel like, what a challenge. So I feel like this could be the challenge for people is to win. You are standing in line at the grocery store or waiting for the elevator or whatever it is, because people's inclination is to go negative, then switch it up and go positive. Oh, wasn't that breakfast amazing? Oh, I don't love their team here. Or just something.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:23:19

Look at that cute kid. There's just a million things.

Kate Volman [: 00:23:21

There's a million things. But it's funny. It's almost. Well, that's a whole other conversation. I was just gonna say, I think I read somewhere, like, it's where people can bond over, like, a trauma or.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:23:31

Make one up and bond over it.

Kate Volman [: 00:23:33

Yes. Like, for this amount of time that it's gonna take to get from floor one to floor eight, we are going to complain about all the things.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:23:41

Absolutely. Because then we're connecting. Yes.

Kate Volman [: 00:23:44

Oh, my gosh. All right. Well, Tony, this was awesome. I hope that everyone listening take at least one of these questions, one of these stories, something that will had at least made you think about your business in a different way, your life in a different way, trying to get to the root of the right questions. And when you start to reframe it this way, it's cool. It does take practice. Right. This isn't something that you just figure out immediately.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:24:10

And that's the benefit. When you got a coach and you're going to have that conversation, you know, they're going to ask you the question. Then you got some accountability there, too. So.

Kate Volman [: 00:24:17

Yeah. Yeah. Tony asks all the tough questions to make sure that you get off the phone. And you might not always love it, but you'll love it after.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:24:25

Yeah. I had a client say, I hate you the other day.

Kate Volman [: 00:24:28

Oh, awesome.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:24:29

Yeah, That's a good sign.

Kate Volman [: 00:24:30

Yes. Yes. When you get comments like that from clients, you're like, I've done my job.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:24:35

My job.

Kate Volman [: 00:24:36

You're.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:24:37

Well, that's what we'll tell ourselves.

Kate Volman [: 00:24:40

Oh, my gosh. So you're listening. We hope that you take some of these questions, and it supports you in figuring out whatever solutions that you need, whatever problems you're trying to solve in your business. And of course, we would love the opportunity to work with you on coaching and what that would look like in your business. Again, just having that third party person is so it's so great to just have someone that's going to ask those tough questions and hold you accountable to answering them and to bringing those to your team. And so we would love to have that conversation with you. You can go to floydcoaching.com and someone on our team will reach out to you. Tony, always so fun to chat.

Kate Volman [: 00:25:16

Thank you so much.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:25:17

Oh, thank you. My pleasure.

Kate Volman [: 00:25:19

This was a fun one, and we so appreciate all of you for listening. Thank you for being here. And until next time, Lead With Culture.