To Promote Within or Hire Externally, That is the Question

[: 00:00:00

So that your biases about people don't affect your decisions where to put people. And that's the challenge.

This is Lead with Culture. I’m Kate Volman and on this episode, we’re talking about business changing questions and I'm joined by our director of coaching Tony Ferraro. Tony, good to see you.

[: 00:00:33

[: 00:00:39

Challenges that we're going through as leaders and building a business. And so Tony you are working with quite a few executives and leaders and CEOs. And so I reached out, I said, Hey, Tony, so let's talk about of the biggest questions that, we're getting asked this year, especially because, every year is unique in its own way.

so the past few years have been interesting. what are some of questions that you get asked most often?

[: 00:01:25

bit.

But as a good coach you answer questions with questions. so there are a lot of questions around this but even before the questions, where we've been able to help folks is there are very few new problems.

In business, even with all the new technology, first of all, they're all people. And so most of those questions have something to do with people as this one does.

But, They're also fit into some buckets and that's what's really exciting when we, help folks understand, when they implement the culture solution, there's six facets to building a dynamic culture. And if you can, take a problem group. And put it into one of those areas, then you have a chance to, figure out what you're really dealing with because all of them will funnel into one of those or maybe a couple, but at least it gives you an idea of how to attack the question.

So, this one in particular, the first principle in the culture solution is mission is King. So when you're looking at replacing someone, the real question is, okay, how can we best. Move the mission forward the first thing you have to identify is what is the mission of the organization need?

what's interesting about that is the need that the organization had when that leader who left came on board, chances are needs. The organization may be different. Then they were when that person took over as that leader. if you just blindly try to replace the person, the position may have changed, which means that to fulfill the mission of that role, it's going to take someone who has some different capabilities, but sometimes we just get locked into like, how are we going to replace Bob? How are we going to replace Bob How are we going to replace Bob are we going And I hear executives say that they'll say, I'm looking for the new Pat, and the thing is you're not,

So that's the 1st thing really getting clear on what is the role. And what is the mission of that role? that I think you have to do right away.

[: 00:03:32

So now when you're looking for someone, you can fulfill those needs because.

Everyone has both those

sides.

[: 00:03:58

and then looking like, was anything personality driven? In the job. And if that's the case, you have to look past that that happens all the time by someone's personality, certain things get emphasized, other things don't. So you really have to look at the position and what the mission of that position is.

Then the second thing might sound a little contradictory, but the second thing is ignore the org chart. there could also be a tendency to say person X left. Right below them on the chart is person. Why then? Okay, naturally why goes into X? We promote him or her because they're right next to on the org chart when that can be a big mistake take the classic sales example, sales manager leaves So you look down you take your best salesman and say well They're the best salesman.

There'll be the best sales manager. And oftentimes it's two entirely different skill sets. The person's frustrated and doesn't do a good job. So ignore the org chart because that helps in a lot of ways. People, whether they say it or not, we'll build in expectations. Talk about an expectation gap.

You know, I'm working at this level of the org chart. My expectation is that when this person moves on or moves up, it's like Tetris, I just go right back up in there when the leader's thinking, no, that person they're great at what they do, but they're not ready to fill that. position that actually happened talking to a leader, a position to open up a person came in and said, I'm willing to jump in there and I think I can do this.

And the leader's gone and it's not your skillset. So it was a real challenge to, keep that person motivated because they do great work. Just not in that next role. So, making sure you don't build in that expectation.

[: 00:05:42

What does growth look like to you? for some people, all they're thinking is, a promotion to the next phase, to be that sales manager. I was working with someone years ago who couldn't wait to be a manager. And then they got in that management role.

They hated it. It just wasn't for them. They were doing their job, they enjoyed their work. And then when their job turned from doing the work to actually managing people, they were like, no, I don't want to be held accountable to all these people.

it's so important for us as the leaders to know what are the expectations of that person? What does growth look like?

And honestly, some of those people. Might not even know because they haven't thought about it. They haven't been asked that question. So this is their opportunity to say, Hey, ideally in the next one year, three years, five years, this is where I really want to be. And then you can help that person develop the skill set in which to get to that next level,

[: 00:06:53

And just the scenario that you described I was working with someone great person and that role opened up above them they were saying, well, they're great at what they do, but they're not real good at managing people. And the question was, well, does the role require?

Yeah, that's a big part of it. Yeah. you can't move that person up into that role because it wouldn't be good for anybody in that case. And certainly not good for the organization. So the question then was, well, how do I keep this person, as you said, advancing professionally and you touched on a great point, what's important to them.

[: 00:07:34

Doesn't that make sense? And I was reminded of the story of Babe Ruth. Someone asked him one time, how do you justify making more than the president last year? And his response was, I had a better year so, reward people with what's important to them.

but back to the question. So org chart, don't go by the org chart. The other thing I would suggest is,, and you need to constantly do this, whatever the change is, and that's what's called top grading.

[: 00:08:11

It's just an exercise that allows you to keep the right people in the right place in your mind this happens. All of that just sets the table. To help make the decision about staying within or going outside.

[: 00:08:36

[: 00:08:40

what happens on those big organizations is they do keep promoting people, even folks who I'm not sure the best person for the role, but then that's kind of the natural selection person goes up. They're not good at it. That's how they thin the herd going up in the organization, which is not great way to do it.

I don't think. But the same thing. Now you take the opposite extreme the, much smaller company, then the expectations are actually the same. Well, because then it becomes about names. You know, bill was there. I've been here. The second longest to bill leaves, I must the person that comes into that because we're all one little big, happy family here.

So the reality is we always say people are people expectations get built. And those expectation gaps are what will doom the situation when it comes to whether you hire within or, without. So. back to the question. We still haven't answered it.

But I think it's important that you look at that because you may have the resource within and developing your talent is huge. first of all, let me back up for a minute. If you feel like you need to go outside of the organization because you've done all that and there's just no answer, then you should do that.

And you should do that. quickly and you should do that aggressively now the precursor to that is do you have people in mind? oftentimes we'll ask executives, when's the last time you interviewed for a position you don't have open. They look at you like you've got, three heads, but in sales, what do they say?

ABC always be closing,

In the HR realm, it should be ABH always be hiring or always be interviewing.

[: 00:10:19

recruiting.

[: 00:10:22

I remember talking to a leader and went in at the start of their new year and I said, so, you've had some turnovers. Yeah, I hired eight new people. I'm not particularly excited about any of them, but they're all hired.

[: 00:10:46

the biggest mistakes in hiring. We

feel like, Oh, we just got to get

someone in that seat. That's a lot of people though, to hire and not be

excited about

one

of them.

[: 00:10:57

The first one, as I said, is to replace the person. If there's a viable candidate You go ahead replace them with the next person provided you've done that whole reassessment of what's the mission of the role and you've looked at the person and say, can they feel that? So you've got it.

You've got to do that. Another option is that backfill the position with the current team. leaders leave in two ways. One, they've done a great job and they go on to something else. Other times they leave or you get rid of them, whatever that is.

But in the first case, if they've really been a good leader, they should have grown the people that work for them. And oftentimes they've grown them into such a way that, they can handle most of what that leader. Was doing, because that leader should just be a great coach, ultimately be spend most of their time coaching.

So oftentimes, what you can do is and i'll ask that question. Do you think your team could pick up? In the short or long term most of what that person was doing and a lot of times the answer is yes I mean if we divide that up those people can do that and the added benefit to that is The trust you are showing to those people.

sometimes there's can be a little resentment When the person leaves and you don't even think about that option, you know, we could have filled that role. Look, we're already doing half of these things that you're going to hire a new person to do because our other person, he or she either trained us to do it or they didn't do it and we filled in the slack for them one way or the other.

So there's a chance to really show some trust in the team that's there and you can compensate them for that. like you talked about growth, what's important to them. Sure. Just give them more of whatever's important to them. I think they'll more than pick up that slack.

And that's a morale boost people are digging in. there's just a sense of confidence within a team. and then the third option is maybe you've got somebody, but they're not quite ready yet. So that's kind of a combination of the two.

have the team fill in, but then you start to give that person some responsibilities. And then most importantly, I just had this conversation the other day is you say, maybe I can get this person to coach maybe they can start taking on more roles and we can coach them through some of those things to get them right up to that, spot.

So it's a not yet. But you're getting them ready by giving them the bulk of the responsibility with the idea that they'll eventually fill that role. But you're going to give them some coaching to get them to that place. So seem to be the options that people have chosen. And when they take the time to do all that, tends to work out.

[: 00:13:28

In a few years or a few months, whatever that looks like. I mean, I was just reading an article in a Harvard business review and they were talking all about skillset and how we have to be developing new skills with all this AI and all the new way of work and that people are excited about that.

They actually want to develop those skills and leverage technology in a way that makes. Their job easier and also fulfills the mission of the organization. So when we hire growth minded people that want to grow and develop opening up those conversations with people is the most important thing that we can do.

what's interesting is that this whole conversation comes down to communication and expectations. It's like when we have those conversations with our people and really understand what's important to them. I find that to be so exciting I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he said, man this person on my team, they are so good and they do such great work and they're phenomenal at sales.

But he. Is not great at presentations with the client. it just didn't fit what this person was looking for, but he's so great at what he does and he loves what he does. And so he's like, we decided to change his title and change his role, and then we're bringing somebody else.

Into the team that can fulfill the role that he plays more of now. And so he gets to do what he's great at great for him, great for the team. And now we're building and we're bringing someone else on that has the skillset that he doesn't have. And so, that's,

What's really exciting is that when we really do get to develop our people in that way and help our people shine.

Because that's so exciting, too, is as a leader it's our job to find our team members superpowers.

Like, what are those superpowers that they have? And so often people are not recognized for those superpowers, and when we can encourage that think about someone in your life, Tony. I know you have lots of great coaches that you work with who they see those things in you that sometimes you don't even see in yourself.

And just having that person reminds you of that and push you in that direction is so rewarding. It's so fulfilling.

[: 00:15:54

So that your biases about people don't affect your decisions where to put people. And that's the challenge. I say it's the dichotomy there. You have to do both to fulfill it, so, as a leader, you've got to balance both those things. And so what I would offer here if you're in this situation, just to summarize what we talked about 1st thing get very clear about what the.

Mission of the role is we always talk about when you have a role description, not a job description because people want roles in the mission. They don't want jobs. So get real clear about what the mission of that role is and how that fits into the mission of the organization. That's one thing to get clear of.

The second thing is to get real clear about your people. So do things like top grading, take everybody in your organization or that department and just rank of one to whatever and get very clear. Their strengths, their weaknesses, be very honest about that. Make sure, you know, what's important to the people on that team.

And you do that, as you said, you really only do that through having conversations with people over time, knowing what's important to them, knowing their dreams, knowing their professional goals, those things. So get that in place. Once you have all of those things in place, then decisions just become easier because instead of seeking an answer, You answer a lot of smaller questions, this happens a lot on coaching calls that we have when you ask enough questions. The answer just presents itself. So if you do a good job of knowing who you have, knowing what the role is, you can kind of look at it and layer those things on top and either say there's not a great fit here.

I'm going to go elsewhere or I think it's this person and sometimes it'll surprise you who that person is, but you have eliminated the personality that comes with things. This just helps you get really clear. It helps set expectations and, do what's best for the organization, which is what ultimately a leader has to do.

[: 00:17:51

So I love that this is actionable no matter where you are in your hiring realm,

[: 00:18:29

people

[: 00:18:31

that we're impressed by, that we feel like they do good work, that we might want to work with them in some way, just reaching out to them and having a conversation.

that's, what's so exciting is that we have access to. so many different people and just to say, Hey, how are you enjoying your role? what are you most excited about in your career path and what that looks like. you might find a lot of synergy just by having those conversations with different people throughout we hope that you gain some value out of this episode if you are interested in learning about how a coach would make a huge impact on your leadership style in your role and really help you grow personally and Professionally, we would love to have a conversation with you about that and what that would look like really is one of the best investments you can make on yourself hey, everyone needs a coach the best athletes, the best leaders, the best people in the world, have coaches to help them grow in all different areas. And so we would love chat with you about that. You can go to Floydcoaching.com to learn more and schedule a call with one of our coaches. All right, Until next time, lead with culture.