Top 3 Hiring Challenges and How to Overcome Them Like a Pro featuring Tony Ferraro

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:00

Most issues are who and not what. So you better pay attention to the who.

Kate Volman [: 00:00:07

This is Lead With Culture. And today's episode is one that we know you're going to love because it is a challenge that we hear from many of the leaders that we work with. We are talking about the top three hiring challenges and who better to be our guest today than Tony Ferraro, who is our director of coaching over here at Floyd. So, Tony, this is like one of your favorite topics.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:35

I enjoy it. Look, we hear all the time about the challenges of hiring and really there's, there's. It starts at one place we hear it. It's the conversation starter for all the managers. And I can't find good people. I don't have enough qualified candidates. Before we came out here, I did a quick Google search, you know, number one challenge of hiring managers and every one of them, number one, finding great people, locating, having a pool of candidates.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:00:58

So that's usually the starting point for folks. And I think there's a little bit of a defeatist attitude with that, like there's nothing you can do about that. And today we're going to talk about three things that you can do about that that are pretty simple but I think can have a dramatic effect. So I'm excited to talk about those three things to help somebody out.

Kate Volman [: 00:01:18

Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah, it is really interesting when we are talking about the hiring process because it's one of those aspects of a leader's role that we don't always want to spend a lot of time on because it can be challenged to put things in place that are going to set you up for success in the long term. And hiring becomes an issue when you need to fill a seat. Instead of making hiring something that you talk about and that you have a great process and you already know how you're going to attract great people. How are you going to retain them?

Tony Ferraro [: 00:01:54

One of the positive trends is that, you know, I think there was a time when all hiring was HR and managers just conceded everything to hr. That's changed a lot, at least from the folks that I talked to. People, managers, department heads or team leaders, they're involved in the hiring. I do still see though, that most managers and most leaders are leading the sourcing issue up to the HR department. So in other words, you find me the candidates and then I'll interview them. And that's where part of the problem is that when you abdicate the responsibility of sourcing people, then you're stuck with whatever pool of candidates you get. And most, most places are still doing some form of passive sourcing, waiting for information coming, even if they're posting on Indeed. And the other places, it's still rather passive.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:02:46

You post and you wait for people to come in. So one quick tip. How can you, what can you do today as a leader to move the needle in this area? And, and the simple question is, are you being systematic in sourcing before you actually have openings or slots to fill? So what that means is that I remember asking a leader the other day, I said, so how many people have you interviewed this month for positions you don't have? It wasn't really a trick question, but it was a unique question. The point being, with everything going on, the idea is you have to be cultivating people before you have the position so you don't get in. We talk later about the One of those hiring mistakes is just out of necessity finding somebody to fill a role. So as a leader sourcing and are you actively going out and trying to source people, a pool of candidates for positions eventually in your organization? Simplest way to do that, go to your. I know people don't have Rolodexes anymore, but go to your contacts in your phone, pick out 10 people that you really respect, 10 other leaders that you really respect, give them a call and say, hey, look, I'm just, I'm trying to build a great pool of people that we could potentially hire. Tell me who's the best person you know in this field and stop there and see it and it'll tell you.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:04:03

And notice that the question isn't who's the best marketer looking for a job, it's who's the best that you know? And then you can start reaching out to people and you make a phone call, hey, I just want. I heard you're doing a phenomenal job there. I just want you to know that if you're ever interested in a position where we may be looking for that you make those connections with people ahead of time. So to 10 contacts of people you respect, that's going to lead to minimum of 10 people. Most people are going to give you two or three. Oh, this person's really good too. You should. So you're going to have this pool of people that when a role does come up, that's your starting point.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:04:38

Maybe that great marketer that somebody mentioned, they're not looking for a job right now, but you know, birds of a feather flock together. So, hey, that, you know, look, I appreciate the call. I'm not looking For a job, there's a colleague of mine who is, or I know someone who would be perfect for your organization. So are you actively sourcing a pool of candidates? And this is a role for leaders because you know exactly what you need and you know other leaders who are doing a good job in their industry. So that's the first thing to do. Start sourcing. Are you sourcing before you have a slot to fill?

Kate Volman [: 00:05:11

And with that, if someone's thinking, well, I don't even know where to begin. I have so many different roles, I don't know where I would start. This really just goes back to good old fashioned networking. Networking with interesting people. Right? Like it's not even just about only always be recruiting. It's we should be wanting to meet really great people, meet other entrepreneurs, meet other leaders. And when we do that, all of a sudden we see that our network grows. In fact, one of my favorite things to do is I love connecting people.

Kate Volman [: 00:05:39

So if I know a really cool entrepreneur and, and if I know two of them, which I know a lot more than two, but when I talk to someone, I'll often be like, oh, you have to meet so and so. I really don't know that if there's any kind of collaboration or something you guys can do together immediately. But all I know is you're awesome and building something incredible. She or he is awesome, building something pretty incredible. And you're both cool and I think you'll like each other. And then from that you start to build that network so that when you do have that role, boom, you instantly know who to connect with. And you already know these people are out there, they're putting in the work, they're building their own teams, they're building their own businesses, they're doing things out in the world so they have access to all of this. I mean, this is just something that I think it's easy for us to back away from, especially when we're getting so caught up in our business.

Kate Volman [: 00:06:27

But making networking a really critical part of what you're doing as a leader, to build and grow, it'll help you not only with people, but just in general. Resources, ideas, brainstorming, all of those pieces.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:06:40

Yeah, I really like what you say there because that's really what good humans do. Part of that is you may be connecting people, that there's no distinct benefit for you at the moment, but those two people, you connect, they're going to think of you. When you do have a need, they may think of you ahead of that. But when you Call them when you do have a need. They're going to, they're going to go the extra mile because we all know those people who, whenever we get a phone call or an email, they only contact you when they need something, just drives it. Okay, what now? All right. But it's the folks who. Or just reaching out as you're saying you're doing it.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:07:12

So that's a great way to source folks. And every leader should be doing that and they should be putting it on their calendar to take X amount of time. I mean you should be building a group, you should get 10 referrals. Think if you got 10 referrals a month for different positions in your company and in a year you'd have whatever the positions are and 120 people that you could potentially call when, when a role does come up. And as you said, you learn from it and it's just doing the right thing by other people. So that's the first thing. Now once you get those, you know, you source the candidates or whatever else you do to source candidates, all that's going to be for. Not if you don't have a really disciplined hiring process.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:07:49

And bringing folks into a bad process is a number one. You're not going to hire good people and you're going to tarnish your reputation. But do you have a process in place that you can insert these people that you've sourced and know that you're going to get the absolute best interviews out of people, you're going to get the information you need and ultimately have the best chance to sell them on the job and hire them. That requires a process. And so the second thing leaders can do is to start building if you haven't already. Building a disciplined hiring process. And we work all the time with folks. What does that look like? These are the steps.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:08:22

It's not that complicated. But again, you can't build that hiring process when you're trying to fill a role. That's just awful tough. That's. I forget the expression. But you know, that's like, that's like building a car before you as you need to get somewhere. Whatever the expression is, it's short sighted and you're not going to be as efficient. So even if you don't have the positions right now, build that process up so that you are ready that you can take that funnel of people that you've, you spent all that hard work to source and put them through a process that makes sense.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:08:51

And again through, through our coaching, but also through our webinars and we have a workshop coming up that we take people right through what a discipline process looks like that'll transform getting exactly the right people that you need. So that's the second step in it. Do you have a discipline process and do you stick to that process? And you have people involved in it. So that's two things that leaders can do right out of the gate. That doesn't involve money, doesn't involve other people. You can start getting this process done right away and be ahead of the game.

Kate Volman [: 00:09:19

And we know we need processes in our business. And so often we still hear, oh, we don't have a hiring process. And. And it takes time to put one together, one that and one that you actually abide by, that you use that people in the organization. And the cool part about having a process is that you're going to set yourself up for success and not make some of the biggest hiring mistakes that people make. Because when you have a structured process, you have constraints, you know what's going on. One of the things that I always find interesting is when a candidate gets frustrated because they go into an organization and they're like, I had five different interviews and they all asked me the same thing. That person did not have a hiring process.

Kate Volman [: 00:10:06

And so only by doing that and structuring it, knowing who is involved in the process, what questions you're asking, what type of questions, all of that stuff needs to be in there. And this is why, you know, it does take some time. And yeah, it's going to take a little bit of. You're going to play around with it a little bit. You're going to see what works, what doesn't. Every time you hire, you're going to be able to kind of structure differently. In fact, you can actually, with somebody that you did hire, ask them about the process, and you can strengthen it every time that you go through it.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:10:34

Absolutely. You know, and if you're. If you've got an A player in your hiring pipeline, they're evaluating those things. Like you said, those live interviews with the questions, what are the meetings going to be like at this place if everybody's asking the same question five different times, how many mundane meetings am I going to have useless time am I going to have? So hiring is the most human. It's the most human process, which means there's the most variables in it. And so when you can eliminate some of those things. We know that systems drive behaviors. So the systems that we have in place will drive the behaviors, not just in the hiring process, but elsewhere in your Organization.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:11:10

So you gotta go out and you gotta find great people by networking. You gotta get out and get referrals. So a systematic referral place. Then have a discipline system in place that everyone abides by. And that way you can evaluate people to make sure they're the people that you want. And then that leads to the third part, which kind of sounds, you know, over simplistic, but do you know actually what you're hiring for? What is the role? What exactly is the role that you're hiring for? What are the characteristics the person has to have? Do you have that outlined? And so we talk a lot about this third part, role descriptions. Do you have a role description? Not a job description, a role description, meaning what is the mission of this role and what role does that mission play in the, in the organization's greater mission? Do you spend some time on that and really think about what that is? That's not what the person does. Those aren't the actions that the person takes.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:12:07

Those are really saying that this is the contribution the person makes to the mission. That's very results oriented. Oftentimes we see job descriptions that are very activity oriented. And I think it was John Wooden who said, don't mistake activity for achievement. You can tell a salesperson, we expect you to make 50 calls a month or a week, and they can make 50 calls a week. But really what you want them to do is make 10 sales a week. So what does that mean? You've got a role description that says you help the company fulfill its mission by accomplishing these things. And the things that you're talking about accomplishing, that's the second part is do you have a scorecard for that position? Have you outlined the 1, 2, 3, 4 key metrics that this person is going to be evaluated on? And once you do that now you're really, really where you want to be.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:12:56

Because then you can ask the person very simply, tell me about your prior work and what were you asked to do and did you accomplish it? And as they're telling you that, you can listen for have they done the things necessary that are going to get them to these results in your company? Because in hiring, oftentimes the best predictor of future success is past performance. So just getting super clear about what it is that you want the person in this role to accomplish, not do. So you put those three things together. Now all of a sudden you've got it. You know, the picture just crystallizes into kind of who you need, what you need them to accomplish, and then it Just works both ways. Once you're clear about that. So when you're doing the sourcing and someone says, well, you know, what are you looking for? Hey, I'm looking for somebody who can close $1 million in sales a quarter. That's what we're looking for.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:13:50

If I'm talking to a peer of mine, that really narrows the scope of who they're going to refer. They may say, well, this guy's great, he could do that. I know this person. But I don't think they can meet that number, whatever it is. So it works both ways. Once you, when you have a really good scorecard, role description, and that's part of your process, then you can start sourcing with the right thing in mind. And it works the other way too. So those are three things that any leader can start doing right away.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:14:17

And we work with leaders every day. And I kept coaching them through that.

Kate Volman [: 00:14:20

It's interesting because I was reading an article and they had done a survey and of course they were talking about hiring and how it is one of the biggest challenges and how people in this survey, it said that 43% of the employers say their biggest hiring challenge is actually receiving too many unqualified candidates. So you're getting unqualified candidates. And part of that is because of those role descriptions. People are just applying for all these roles because they're like, oh, I guess I could do that. But you're almost eliminating that mediocrity. Because if you are very clear on what it is that you, that you are expecting of this person, the people that are not gonna, you're not gonna get those people that apply. You're not gonna get everyone that applies because they're really going to take it seriously. Like, oh, wow, this is.

Kate Volman [: 00:15:11

Not only do I feel like I'm going to be part of something because they have this mission that's involved with it also, I really believe that I will be able to fulfill all of these, these roles. Most role descriptions still feel so generic. No, hey, look, I like Chat GPT just as much as the next girl, but I think a lot of people are. I mean, you're using those kinds of programs to help you write role descriptions. And you can tell, you can really tell because it is so generic. And so anyway, I thought that was interesting that so many people just are getting an influx of people that just like wouldn't make sense.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:15:46

There's so much automation going on through AI and other things that now it's, it's almost the reverse is happening. Is that like when you post a position, people have that automation set up saying, submit my resume. When a marketing position comes up, you're going to get inundated with really bad resumes. That's where this comes in. It's so it might not be that the number of people, but you're going to have more resumes of even more unqualified people. So yeah, that's why being proactive with that is so important and having a good process because it's only going to get worse. The automation of things. You're going to, you know, more people are going to get submit resumes that they don't even know they're submitting it to your company.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:16:23

So that's the whole process. But yeah, it's just a constant battle. You know, there's nobody out there now, there's everybody out there. Which really I think just goes to the core issue that hiring is about being on the offense and not the deep defense and just trying to wait for people to come to you, go through some kind of interview and hope that, you know, the person will do better than they interviewed or whatever that is. And holding that optimism, you have to really go out there and find the exact person you're looking for. It can be done.

Kate Volman [: 00:16:51

You're totally building a team. It's such a different mindset. If you're really thinking about this is the team I need in order to fulfill this mission to have to grow the business the way I want to. You want to have people that you enjoy on the team that you know is going to make an impact. So I feel like there's just such a different mindset of just getting someone into the seat versus I really am building something here. And you can tell it's different, obviously different sized organizations, it's a different energy. But I love when I get to talk to entrepreneurs when they have, you know, especially those that you have 10, 15, 20, and you're starting to build, you really are handpicking these people to be part of your organization. That is, it's a big decision to make and so we can't make those decisions lightly.

Kate Volman [: 00:17:36

The other thing that I'll add with that role description scorecard is what's great about it when after you've posted. And it does help you with the hiring process. It also helps with onboarding so much. And that's another part that just goes back. You gotta hire them and then you gotta retain them. And so often people have bad experiences with onboarding and this is one way to make that process even easier. But that's a whole other episode.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:00

Yeah, exactly. Because we can take it a step further. Now all of a sudden, we're gonna do quarterly. Well, shouldn't the quarterly review be on your scorecard? Based on your scorecard, we hired you to do this. So this is how foundational this is and how fundamental this is. And any leader, gosh, I see folks where they'll. They'll be shopping for a new CRM and they've got a committee of five people and a 20 page RFP and all the feature set and those things. Just think if we did that with people, right? We took it with the same seriousness of going out seeking.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:32

And so anyway, I'm way up.

Kate Volman [: 00:18:35

People are more complicated. So that's the problem.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:38

That's true. Yeah.

Kate Volman [: 00:18:39

People are going to people.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:18:40

As we always say, there's nothing more important. Most issues are who and not what. So you better pay attention to the who.

Kate Volman [: 00:18:48

That's right. That's right. All right, well, awesome, Tony, thank you so much. And this is obviously, we have mentioned the culture solution many times and The Culture Solution, Matthew Kelly's book. He shares the six immutable principles of a dynamic culture. And principle number four is hire with rigorous discipline. And as Tony has mentioned, we work with a lot of leaders on this principle as well as the other five principles because they all work together to create that great culture. And if you are interested in culture coaching or talking to us about helping you with the hiring process, we have a webinar, we do some workshops.

Kate Volman [: 00:19:23

We'll put those in the notes for you to take advantage of. And also, if you want to just have a conversation with us around what it would look like to help to get some support around not only your hiring process, but building a great culture. So people love coming to work and accomplishing great things together, we would love to talk to you. And you can go to floydcoaching.com Tony, thank you so much. You're awesome, as always.

Tony Ferraro [: 00:19:46

My pleasure. Great.

Kate Volman [: 00:19:48

Thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate you. And until next time, Lead With Culture.